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Share Bear
Firstly, here is some background for those of you new to the stockmarket…

QUOTE
The role of the market maker

A market maker runs a ‘shop’ and investors buy shares from him or sell them back to him. The rules for SEAQ stocks insist that all share transactions must go through a market maker.
The market makers act as retailers of shares and display their prices during working hours (8.00-4.30pm). The prices may vary (sometimes considerably) during the day, depending on a number of influences.
For example, if the holder of a very large amount of a share decides to sell (or many holders of small amounts), the market makers will reduce the price they are prepared to pay for the share. The converse is true also; if there is a consistent and large enough demand for a share, then the market makers will increase the price.
Market makers make money from buying shares at a lower price to which they sell them. This is the bid/offer spread. The more actively a share is traded, the more money a market maker makes.
It is often felt that the market makers manipulate the prices. However, ‘market manipulation’ is an emotive term that conjures up images of shady deals and exploitation. In fact, they are not elusive companies that appear then vanish overnight. They are duty bound to make a market and to meet the needs of those they are responsible to, so to this end they may try to influence the market.

However, market makers are known to lower prices to ‘panic’ investors into selling, sometimes called ‘shaking the tree’. Moving the price up encourages sells, moving it down also encourages sells. The opposite is a ‘dread cat bounce’, a false mark-up to catch out all those bottom fishers or falling knife catchers.
One of the myths surrounding market makers is that they take positions in the stocks they quote, the usual cry is “the market makers are shorting this stock; that’s why the price is going down”. Wrong. Market makers make money by churning stocks, not by taking a position. This does not mean that they do not end up with an excess or a shortage of stock but the cost of holding and the risk of being the wrong side does not make commercial sense.
A market maker who is over-exposed to the market is injecting systematic risk to the whole market. If he was to take up many large positions across the whole range of shares he makes a market in, then any market crash would see him bankrupt (a la Nick Leeson and Barings) and therefore unable to make a market. Once the market vanishes, the shares become pretty worthless (if you cannot sell something at any price, what is it worth?). This, in turn, could force other market makers to go bankrupt and the whole thing would lead to a market meltdown.
Consider for one moment an analogy of market makers and bookmakers. They both make a ‘book’ and in many ways operate in the same fashion. Imagine standing in the betting ring at a racecourse. You look around all the bookings’ stands and see the horse you want to back being offered at differing prices. You naturally go to they bookie who will offer you the best odds.

Let’s say Fred is offering 15-1 on the horse you want to back, whereas the other bookie (Ted & Ned) is on 14-1 or further out. Fred will take your bet at 15-1 and will continue to take other bets until he feels he has taken on enough risk at that price. When his book is full, he will move his price down. Meanwhile, Ted & Ned notice that their prices are not bringing in the business, and move their prices up to equal Fred’s, or indeed higher, to put themselves on the price. If a bookie takes on too much risk on any one horse, he will ‘lay off’ the bet among other bookies to share the risks. The whole business is a combination of simple demand/supply economics with a twist of risk.
Market makers work in exactly the same way, moving their prices to encourage buyers and detract sellers and vice versa. Likewise they can partially rebalance their books either by enticing trades by becoming ultra competitive or indeed ‘laying off’ by selling to another market maker direct.


This is what a typical Level 2 screen looks like for a SEAQ (small cap) traded stock:



Now, without Level 2 info, this is what you would see…

Bid = 225
Offer = 240
Mid price = 232.5 (+9.41%)

So, the stock is rising & you want to buy – do you buy right now, or see if it falls back a bit? There’s no way of knowing if the next move is going to be a tick up on the offer, or a drop in the bid price.

However, with Level 2 you can see that there are 4 Market Makers currently bidding for peoples shares. They really want your stock and this competition forces them to go higher than the rest in order to be the ones who get your stock when you sell. Anyone who buys right now is going to buy from UBSW @ 240p. USBW can take orders up to 2,000 shares, so anything above this will probably have to pay a higher price (250p). It will only take a few buys before UBSW runs out of stock and need to buy more back & will go onto the bid, pushing the price up further!

As soon as UBSW moves from the offer, the offer price will be 250p

So, you still cannot tell for sure what direction the price will move next, but you now know that a few buys will send the price up, whereas it’ll probably take a lot more sells to push the price down. (4 Market Makers will need to run out of stock!)

In my opinion, Level 2 enables you to benefit in about third of your trades.It helps you cut the odd 1 or 2 percent off your purchase price or add an extra 1 or 2 percent to your sale price.
Level 2 is therefore a useful tool for everybody, but whether it is worth the money depends on how often you trade & with how much money you trade.

Another example: Sometimes I think I should sell a share when it looks like it's going down. So I check Level 2 and see 4 or 5 MMs on the bid. So I wait. If the Level 2 situation worsens I sell (nothing lost, nothing gained). However, sometimes Level 2 improves & the price starts to rise. Voila, I've avoided selling a share that I thought was going to fall, but now it has risen, and the risk of it dropping before I sold is virtually zero because I've kept my eye on Level 2.

These are the very basics, once you watch Level 2 data for a stock day after day, you get to know which market makers are agressive and which ones play by the rules. You can then easily spot when there is a buyer or seller in the background and that enables you to anticipate which way the stock is likely to go when it hits a support or resistance level. I generally only trade small caps, which use the SEAQ system explained above. The SETS market making system works in a different way, which I'm happy to help people with but find it useless when it comes to predicting the share price movement of the big FTSE 350 companies...

SB tongueff.gif
Justlucky
bought 2 top for newbie info.

so above eg would be 4 vs 1

ie 4 on the bid - 4 mms really want your shares

and

1 on the offer - 1 mm is willing to sell at lower price but once mms shares bought it ll go to 250 along with rest. so price = up.

opposite - 1 vs 4

only 1 mm wants your shares + once got itll go back down to other mm level - sp goes down

4 mms have shares + they want to sell them. - too much supply which means with demand being = then sp goes down.

qu - what about situations like 4 vs 4 or similar variants? good or bad?

thx

jl
Share Bear
A snapshot doesn't actually tell you much. The important thing is how the market makers are moving and who wants to be on the bid/offer (& are they pushing up the bid because they need stock to fill an order or do they want to encourage buyers so they can switch to the offer and get rid of a load of stock?)

1 v 4 or 4 v 1 on it's own means very little.

If you haven't seen L2 in action, ring ADVFN and ask them for a weeks free trial and tell them "lafiamma" sent you (and then when they say "Who?" tell them they did it for him so please can they do it for you!)

SB tongueff.gif
everhopeful
SB

Giving ADVN L2 a try as you suggested and certainly interesting but when I look at the screen there seems another significant factor - the number of shares - which doesn't really show up on your screen capture above.

On your example from MoneyAM then all buy and sell sizes are very similar. This was quite often not the case as I looked at a few this morning. eg one I looked at had 2 on the BID and 4 on the OFFER BUT the 2 on the BID wanted 250,000 shares each and the total for the 4 on the OFFERwas only about 50,000. How much should I be concentrating on the ratio of MMs and how much on the ratio of shares?
Share Bear
If it's a SEAQ stock (where all the market makers' names are shown) then it's irrelevant what their size is, IMO. I've never used that info. However, with SETS traded stocks such as FTSE 100 companies, it is more important for the day traders. I don't trade FTSE 100 stocks, but if I did Level 2 wouldn't be much use, I don't think.

For the small caps (which are nearly all SEAQ stocks as per the example in this threads header) it is essential.

Try and study some of the small cap stocks that are moving around, such as MPH, ASC, JKX, etc.

SB tongueff.gif
Share Bear
Another thing to watch for is when a big trade does through, how do the Market Makers react to it?

SB tongueff.gif
Nosedive
Excellent thread SB can it be pinned for newbies?

Nosey
Bigup
Level 2 will become an arse when everything is switched over to SETS, i must admit i like the SETS system on the FTSE stocks, but i cant imagine using it for those with smaller market cap.
Nosedive
Too be honest I can see why day traders betting on margins use level 2 combined with intraday charts etc.

From my point of view though its entirely a waste of time. With the smaller stocks the situation does not change all day in most cases. I certainly would not pay MoneyAM £60 +vat per month for Level 2.

Nosedive
pec2004
I find I tend to look at the free money AM trades section and look to see if people are buying or selling. I have looked at level 2 this week and haven`t found it that useful.
Nosedive
Agree Pec I like my watch lists in MoneyAM and click on trades to see how the buy volumes are. I thought I may as well try Level 2 as its free for a week.

Thanks to Kitser for pointing that out BTW

Nosey
Bigup
Level 2 isnt as good or valuable as its made out to be. A great money making system....for the distibutors....but not for us punters. The cost is quite high for a system which shows very little apart from the prices MMs are on (but can change very quickly) or buy & sell orders being placed.

It does have its advantages for FTSE stocks whereby you can see how your buy/sell will be taken into consideration (i.e. is there buyers/sellers...how much you can buy/sell and at what price) it does aid decision making in that respect.

However, I stick with money am and the buys/sells/fallers/winners and stockwatch with uk-wire and occassionaly check the level 2 situation for SEAQ stocks. I do use it quite a bit if trading FTSE stocks where small percentage movements can count towards making or profit or loss, so it definately comes in good use there.

But apart from that i wouldnt pay to have the usage of it (mines free)
Nosedive
I always admit if I think I have got something wrong. I think I understand level 2 better now and would like to have it.
Nosedive
Bigup
lol why the change of mind?

btw, i may have been a bit harsh on Level 2 smile.gif its a good tool if you can master it i guess! But i havent managed that yet!
Nosedive
Because in certain circumstances it does give you definite signals to buy or sell (not always right like TA but beneficial all the same).

Today JLP was on the rise and I added 40%. If I had waited 2 minutes more I would have seen on level two that the share was retracing. I could have added my 40% a bit cheaper. It did return to the higher level 1 hour later. In this kind of situation L2 is a definite asset.

Nose "learning all the time" dive
:S
maytrees
I have found Level 2 interesting to use
(moneyam free trial all this week).

In a way however it is a little too informative
for long term investors, as its clues as to which
way the sp might be heading in the next few minutes
or hour, can tempt you (me anyway!) to sell or buy to beat
the sp fall or rise.

I wonder if that in turn
is creating extra cost and SP volatility in some instances?
If so the MMs and brokers will benefit but ordinary
investors could lose.

EG from L2 it was clear that BSP sp was likely to fall
a little yesterday and JBH to rise. Swapping from
one to the other or indeed selling
elsewhere to buy more jbh were all possible
and logical reactions to L2 info.

I resisted all those temptations and only
time will tell if that resistance proves worthwhile
though today jbh sp did indeed gain and bsp's lose
slightly. Even so switching
would still not have been worthwhile.


Moneyam Free trial of L2 ends today.
Very interesting tool to use imho
but also one which has its risks including
as indicated above, possible infomation
overload leading (me anyway!) to overtrade
and thus lose out if I am not careful.

I can see the benefits for disciplined pros though.

8)
Nosedive
What a useful link this is good.gif I often come back to it


Nosedive smile.gif
Van
I have just opened a CFD and Spreadbetting account with Selftrade. They apparently have free Level 2, which I intend to try out. I will post here what I think.

Rgds all.
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